Exporting Grapes From Egypt

by Ibrahim Hassan

Audio Transcript:

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 0:01

Hi, everyone. And thank you all for joining us today. We are talking today to Ibrahim, Hassan. And we’d like to kick things off by just, you know, a brief introduction of who you are and what you do.

 

Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 0:24
Yeah, thank you very much Kingsly for having me right now and having this conversation especially. It’s very important before starting off a new season for the grapes. And I want to, I want to thank you for this opportunity. First of all them I’m a brain person and reefer and perishable specialist, I have like a long experience for over 13 years in the perishable and reefer and food logistics in different organizations leading organization in the industry, like Kuehne and Nagel, damco, pnalpina And recently, for the last two years, i am with seafrigo. seafrigo is a specialized food logistics, freight forwarder. And with a network of that is across 19 countries with with a dedicated food logistics calibers in all these countries, and what is amazing about it, that it’s it’s not an light assets company. No, we have the cold storage, the warehousing the added value services that is covering usa, Canada, Australia and also far East like Hong Kong and Malaysia. While I’m based in Egypt, so we are offering a variance services for good for food logistics for cold chain and added value services.

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 2:01
Fantastic. That sounds like an awesome career you’ve had for the last 13 years. So did you start your career in Egypt? Where did you study actually and how did you come across this industry?

 

Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 2:16
My main study is the business administration normally, but after that I joined immediately CSAV in Eurasia after my graduation and also I had my master’s degree in international trade and logistics after that with with two years so I started my career in the in the logistics from first day didn’t change anything since now. But I became more specialized and I like it, what we do in in in the in the reefer and perishable and temperature control since the product so I continued my journey in this field, and I really passionate about it. I like it very much.

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 3:02
Wow. Ebrahim, I am really thrilled to be speaking with you today you have a breadth of experience in this industry. So thank you again, once more for making the time to talk to us today. So um, I was speaking to some exporters in Egypt. And I understand that the grip season has has just started. And some of them are looking to export their grapes to places in countries in Europe and others as far as Russia. What are some of the processes, in your view that with the experience that you’ve had, that these exporters must go through to ensure that their shipment process is smooth?

 

Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 3:44
Okay, well, this is very important question I see because it involves, I don’t want to say along the process, but it’s a very important process like we start with the planning for the season. And how we plan we have meetings and calls with the customers to understand to give him an overview about what is happening this season. What is the vessel schedule? What is we need to understand what is his volumes, his weekly loadings, pickup dates make sure that everything regarding the clearance and everything is going right. Once we have these data we need to take the forecast from the customers. Once we have the forecast we build over it. So we understand we we are able to manage the capacity in terms of space of equipment, reefer containers, the trucking, and also the genset because you are in a high demand season with a condensed six weeks like the whole Egyptian season want to to export mainly to Europe and other destinations during these six weeks. sure It extends more than that, but the six weeks is very condensed And everyone wants to load on on this vessel on specific because you cannot miss one week you will you will load for next week you will lose money okay because the prices at destination like in UK or in Europe change every week and finally we go through the execution process so we we build with our customers and sob make sure that the we have a clear challenge channel of communication between all involved parties in the pack houses in the office in the customer service team and also the commercial team. And we start receive full data for each shipment we make sure that this this data is revised and validated through the packing list and invoice make sure that we have the right instruction in terms of the temperature humidity ventilation and during this season, our team is is working 24 hour every day until we finish the grapp season. So once we have the planning the forecast and the execution we have the right the right process to ensure that everything is in place and we are loading on a weekly basis on time with with no downfalls. Wow.

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 6:13
So you’re loading on a weekly basis? Can you give me an idea in terms of numbers how many containers roughly you guys are responsible for shipping out of Egypt every week

 

Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 6:23
So on a weekly basis we have the most important destinations for us is Koper Slovenia because we do our multimodal through Koper and Slovene and we have direct vessels going to UK and Rotterdam. This is our main main market but on the same time we have some volumes going to Russia and some volumes going too far east like Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia. So we are speaking about on a weekly basis, you have over than 100 containers to 150 reefer containers. distributed on all these destinations.

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 7:05
Wow, that seems like a lot of cargo that you’re moving within a week that must must bring with it some some significant challenges. So but the pandemic has has obviously caused some disruptions in these schedules. Are you seeing a rise in cargo damage as a result of the pandemic at all in Egypt?

 

Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 7:26
We since since last year, we are facing a huge disruption in in the in the logistics and the industry. We’re facing huge delays with the vessels and not only delays but because what shippers don’t understand that the carrier’s cargo reliability has fell down to its minimum with a 30 to 50% for some carriers. So we are speaking about a huge delays both omission sudden changes in the route like for example we have a shipments going to Felixstowe which is spring onions very sensitive product but once the vessel arrived there the terminal was congested. So the carrier took the decision to change the route and make Rotterdam in the beginning hammburg and then Felixstowe. So we are speaking about an extra seven days over the normal route. And sometimes the carrier has to take the decision to to discharge the cargo in a different port which also happened in UK so the shipping line discharged the cargo in Rotterdam and we had to wait for another week to remove the cargo from Rotterdam and move it to Felixstowe or to take a fast action by tracking this cargo from Felixstowe to Rotterdam to the customer. And same same happens also with with with North with South Africa. So, cargo could be going to Durban, but you can see if the port is congested the carrier take the decision to discharge your cargo in Port Elizabeth for example, and put extra days for tracking the containers from ports from Port Elizabeth to Durban. So, all of this put a huge pressure on on us and also on the customer and and also making the transit time and this disruption make a big probability for having more damage and claims especially with with the sensitive products, like grapes, so for the citrus maybe you have you have the time you have the trust that the the cargo not spoiled, but but for the grapes. So you cannot manage an extra two or three days it will make to make a problem for you. So, this is this is a this is something that we have to adapt to is with something that we we try to work it out and explain it to the customer and then make sure that he’s involved with and engaged with us in what is happening globally with the with the current situation for the carriers.

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 10:08
This is quite interesting because even before the pandemic started, I understood from from Maersk, an official at Maersk said for every one in three shipments there recently, so one out of every three shipments arrive with a delay. So with the pandemic, I suspect that it has even gone higher than that, that was put a significant amount of pressure on customers who are targeting particular markets or targeting, you know, particular windows to be able to make the most profit,

 

Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 10:39
you’re speaking right, yeah, we’re speaking because in for the citrus we have a long we have a long season. So, it is start maybe in December and that end in May. So, you have long time and if you have some missing weeks, like what happened was always having missing vessels put on mission or or so, it’s no problem if you will load the next week, but, but but for the grapes, with the six weeks, you cannot manage something like that you cannot manage this delay, you can also you cannot manage the rollover in some places, because you have your main hub like in Singapore or Malaysia or these are our the main hub for Asia for example. So, you can see from the statistics, the rollover ratio is is also increased. So, for everything is going beyond Malaysia and Singapore, the delay is expected and we try to manage with the customer that we have to load on a direct vessel instead of vessel with that has a connection. But for other destinations, you don’t have this luxury.

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 11:50
So, when you’re targeting vessels, direct direct shipments, these vessels with no connections, that must mean an increase in the freight as well isn’t it?

 

Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 12:01
definitely, definitely. So, this is something that during a long time we spoke with with with all our customers and we tried to make them more in involved within this decision because you will have to take a direct vessel more expensive vessel, but you will make sure that we have the the right window for the for the discharge at the right time your cargo will reach on the right time and ensure the freshness and the quality of the of the cargo which is better than having your container waiting in any of the transshipment port for seven days or 14 days that is not expected at all

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 12:48
I see. I see. So, so, how are shippers actually mitigating some of this, you know, challenges or losses that they are experiencing, are you seeing a rise in the use of digital solutions like you know, real time data trackers and things like that in Egypt, where ship shippers are trying to mitigate their losses with

 

 

 

Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 13:11
So, I let’s speak the grapes shippers are are are very professional and they have the technical experience is very good with their products and they understand what they are doing very well. So, so, in order to mitigate the risk it It all starts with with the post harvest practices for them. So, once one thing they they make sure that they that the harvest is good, the collection is good going to the back house and do the pre cooling and everything this is the first first point that that we start with and then they they work with us and also with with the whole market to have the market intelligence about what are the vessels, how many days the transit time and getting the right insights. So, I recommend also working with with the reliable partner is there a freight forwarder or is a working with a carrier so you have to choose the right partner for this business especially before the grapes and the choosing as we say the choosing the vessels with the with the direct vessel who is least connection or with no connection. So and regarding the using of more technology all of the market is using right now. The data loggers for all the shipments but the downfall here that they are using passive data loggers so you don’t see what’s happening until the cargo arrives destination. But what is what is good and what we we try to to help the customer with is working with carriers that are currently having their smart containers like For example, sequel line and mercy client, so they have, they give you a monitoring or for the temperatures throughout the whole journey of the, of the container from origin to destination at any time you can go on the system and see what’s the temperature of the of the cargo currently, but still, I would recommend for for the whole shippers to use more active data loggers so we get a monitoring of any variation and the temperature, you can see the humidity, you can see the ventilation and it has also sensors for shock and for light so in case anything happened with the container, you can see it so this is something that we’re still working on it with the shippers which still trying to convince them or something like that, maybe it’s it’s more expensive, and put more pressure on them in terms of cost, but it’s coming in the next few years. So, also what what customers are doing right now is they are making sure that they have the right insurance for the grapes, that wasn’t back in days everything everyone’s before this disruption before the pandemic so that everything would would go normally with no problems. But, but we have seen a lot of cases and we experienced a huge losses. So no one wants to have this risk again. So, this is this is this is the current situation but but we are developing year over year. And and speaking about the mitigation of the risk that the customers are seeing right now, I would like also to to help us with with with some of your experience, I know that you studied already the commercial law and you have long experience in this manner. And I would like to understand from you. What’s do you recommend? What what are the steps that the shippers and consignees could take in order to raise the like the claim in appropriate way and deal with that claim in the appropriate way so they can be able to to validate their claim and they be able to succeed in collecting the money.

 

 

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 17:19
Thank you very much for that for that question. Ibrahim,

 

I think I think the first thing that shippers need to understand is for you to be able to successfully bring a claim, you have to have title, title to bring the claim. So are you the right party to bring that claim Are you the bill of lading holder? So often? If you’re a shipper, then well, depending on the term or sale, but if you once the cargo is on the vessel, the rightful party to bring that claim is the consignee and not the shipper. And that is something that shippers don’t know. And so sometimes the approach us that want to bring a claim are we asked them to bring us an assignment of rights. And they don’t understand what this document is. This document basically is, is a document which transfers the rights back from the either the buyer or the consignee to the shipper. This document, you’ll be difficult for you as a shipper to bring a claim. That is the first thing that shippers needed to understand. Now, let’s assume that you have you have your assignment of rights from the consignee need to then understand what you need to establish is what was the quality of your cargo? Before you entrusted it to the shipping line? So you need to be able to establish evidence, such as what was the harvest date? What was the stuffing date? How was the cargo stuff within that container? Was it above the was it below the red line? What was the stuffing pattern in the container and all of these things are things that affect the outcome of your your cargo. So once you have all of this evidence on your side, and you understand who your carrier is, because in some cases it is not very clear on the carrier is so a shipper to see for example, if you’ve got to go to a freight forwarder or you know someone in the neighbourhood and say they want to ship a container, and they provide them with a house bill of lading which does not necessarily you know, with the house bill of lading does not necessarily mean that you can bring a claim against you know that that particular party. So you need right Stan, who is the actual carrier, who is the contractual carrier, because there’s a distinct there’s a difference between the two between the actual and the contractual carrier. And once you understand this difference, then you can begin to understand who is the rightful party for you to bring that claim against because even bringing against the wrong party Damon not respond and then you end up losing the claim altogether. But yes, so, once you understand you have been able to prove the quality of your cargo unloading, you understand your carrier is. And I am assuming that you have already sent a letter of protest. Because once the cars will arrive and damage, you are usually expected to put the carrier on notice within within three days, well, depending depending on the International Convention, which your plane, but we went to have all these things in place, we would expect you to write a letter email to your carrier or their agent, and so on your claim. Now, this is this is something which can be straightforward. But if you did not understand what is expected of you, it can become a little bit complicated. So, advice would be to speak to someone who understands the claims process so that they can help you and reduce that every chance of you know, your claim being rejected.

 

Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 21:06
Yeah, the this is this is very important points, you bring it here, because a lot of the shippers don’t understand about these technicalities that in many cases it leads the shipper or the consignee lose lose the rights if they didn’t deal with the with with the claim on the appropriate way and using the experience of someone who can speak and about what are the documents needed the validation needed, from origin to destinations to approve the such such kind of claim and make sure that we process on the right way. This is something important also to explain what are the process that the claim goes through with and the journey of the claim and who is the stakeholders working through these claims and then we reach to an end and the resolution and then can you explain to us more about it?

 

 

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 22:08
Yes, certainly. So, let let let us assume that your customer is exporting great from Egypt to Rotterdam.

 

Now besides the shipping contract between the shipper and the carrier or the shipping line, in the event of damage to cargo, the first thing that will happen, which is generally a recommendation for the shipper or the consignee is that they need to involve a surveyor. Now, the surveyor involved the surveyor they invite the shipping line to join survey. In some cases they have to in order to invite the freight forwarders surveyor for all these parties to be present during the inspection process. But it’s not uncommon for shipping lines not to attend this joint survey. So they will typically rely on the inspections done by the surveyor of the cargo interest. Now, once this survey has conducted a survey and written the report, if an insurer is involved, obviously, this survey will most likely be happening appointed by the surveyor by the insurer, sorry. So if an insurer is involved, the surveyor transfers the report to the insurance company or their broker, then they adjust the claim. And then if they find that there’s married if it is covered under the insurance policy, the insurance company would pay out for the loss offered by the consignee or the shipper or whoever has the whoever is the insured departing the insurable interest.

 

Now, once that party, what does the insurance company or the broker have settled the claim with the shipper, the next point of action would be to commence the subrogation recovery action. Now the reaction is usually handled by expert recovery agents or in certain cases by lawyers. Now, what happens here is the insurance company would send an email to the recovery agent stating that they have a new claim which they’d like them to add to their behalf. They’ll transfer the files which are available relating to this particular claim, and the recovery agent within on their part, peruse these claims for argument and initiate the claim against the rightful shipping line. Now the advantage of always using a recovery agent or someone who understands the various conventions is because they can look at your documents and determine who is actually the correct person to file a claim against. The other advantage is that they know they understand these large shipping lines very well. They understand how they work. They understand the internal processes. And so they can direct your claim to someone who has the authority to deal with that particular type of claim, as opposed to, you know, if a shipper and he just wanted to handle a claim like they by themselves, they’ll probably go to the local agent an agent. Yes, we the local agent in Egypt does not have the authority to deal with that claim, their local agent will have to transfer that claim to the legal department of the shipping line. And then that local agent becomes a post office that he helps to increase the title and complexities of your claim. And that is why our recommendation is to always go with parties who understand the claim or use technology to streamline backlinks forces.

 

 

 

Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 25:45
Yeah, this is this is very important point that you have mentioned here that, because the process seems long, so how long that normally the claims process could take. And it because it looks like it’s a prolonged process, and also how could you optimiz as being the founder and CEO of optimiz, have to reduce this time and and make it more efficient process to ensure that the customer who ever the shipper or consignee, will be able to receive his his rights and recovered the his claim in a swift way and in a very correct way without waiting, all that? Dirty during the process?

 

 

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 26:33
Thank you very much for that question of the brain. So if you recall, in the last question, we asked about the process, and we mentioned that you have to appoint a surveyor. And I think that is where some of the issues start. Surveys are very good. They’re very good at what they do. But there’s a problem. When you are appointed, seve normally takes about two to five days for the surveyor to go out inspect that set that that container, and then report back now, often, when before the survey arise, or by the time the Soviet arrives and the container or the premises of the consignee, the container has been sent back to the port, that means evidence has been tampered with already. So that means you have already been exposed to potential fraud. You’re dealing with a party that you don’t know why you you don’t trust How do you know if they haven’t, you know tampered with the fruits that they surveys about inspect, and that is some of the limitations that you know, comes with using a surveyor. So you have the first two to five days. Once that is certainly, you know, inspect this goods, then, once the insurance company has adjusted and paid that late, they subrogation, the lawyers of the recovery agent start to take possession of that claim, it typically takes about three months to six months for shipping lines to so from first notification of loss all the way to resolution. There are some cases, however, that this timeframe could extend to over a year. Yeah, I have it’s not totally uncommon.

 

 

 

Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 28:14
I have experienced two or three of these have this one year claim so we couldn’t understand why. But but it’s very important to understand from you what are the process and the stakeholders and everything because we need to eliminate the waste in time here because it’s it’s supposed over then 20,000 US dollars or 30,000 US dollar are waiting and you need the shipper the shippers need them to in his business or maybe he has a conflict flight right now with his freight forwarder thinking that the freight forwarder is not taking making all the pressure on the shipping line to finalize this this claim so So, so, we have this unneeded problem with with with the with with cash being not settled for for over a year this is difficult for all the shippers and all the stakeholders in the in the industry. So what optimize do to reduce this and make it more efficient? And what are the main results and success that you have achieved during the past period? Thanks.

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 29:31
Thank you very much for that for that follow up question. So optimise we focus on two areas, we focus on the inspections. So the digital collection of evidence and we focused on the resolution or the negotiation part of it. So the one thing that you know if you can just step back a little bit and look at and look at, start from the sales point of view. Often we speak to shippers who say and I saw some of your photographs, where you are attending fruit logistica and other conferences  in Europe.

 

 For the past eight years, I’ve been attending fruit logistica. And I speak to African exporters every single time there. And one thing I understand from them, they say, you know, after preparing my container in Africa, like shipping to Europe, the buyer tells me that the containers arrived with 20% and damage, so I’m going to deduct the sales price. Now, because the, you know, the shipper is dependent on the buyer, to a certain extent, they don’t want to lose that customer, they are forced to accept that 20% deduction. The other alternative would be to spend another 1000 years to get a survey to get inspected. So you see, even at that level, there’s a certain mistrust which already exists between the buyer and the seller. There’s also that certain level of losses that is already accumulating as a result of, you know, wanting to use a surveyor. So we said, How can we use technology to start solving that problem? Now, we designed this web based mobile application where shippers on their site can collect evidence of the handling of their cargo, pre shipment. So what are the steps that shippers are currently going from today, from harvest, or let’s say the critical process, there are certain touchpoints in the way we, with our mobile application that we’re able to collect key objective evidence. So this could be photographs, videos, structured text, and things like that. Then, once the container arrives, on the other side, the consignee would use the same application. So the same code to collect evidence around the outside of the cargo. So before, once the container arrived, arrives, the content the consignee, would launch the application, collect photographs and videos of the stopping process, the system, the application would guide them as if it would, so they the application actually empowers them to act as a qualified surveyor. So they say that they’re supposed to take, you know, inspecting the T bow flow, expecting the loop line checking where the if there was an attempt to go in there, where was it placed? where it was, it didn’t log in there, where was it placed, checking the storage pattern within that container, looking at the cartons that were damaged, looking at the extent of the damage and things like that. So the application is quite, you know, exhaustive in its approach of these inspections.

 

 Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 32:40

 

Now,

 

 Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 32:43

 

once the consignee has used this application to collect evidence, or on the collected evidence is then transformed into a claim. So that means the consign evil Naga has to bother about getting a recovery agent or lawyer, all of the collected evidence that they have become automated server report from it, you know, and then they submit their claim against the shipping line in question. Now, the system would guide you even if you have no idea about maritime law, the system will guide you asked what steps needs to be taken before you submit your claim. So say, for example, you’re exporting grapes, all you need to do is to go to the system and select that you’re the cargo you’re exporting is grapes, you would ask me what was the cause of damage, it was temperature, then once you respond, that is temperature intent tells you Okay, for temperature damages. These are the types of information that you require to bring a claim against mask, for example. But there’s another important element of the solution. So today, it will cost you about a 15 to 30% for a recovery need to act on your behalf on a contingency basis. And a loader, a surveyor will cost you about 1000 years, they say 500 to 1000 euros for each container inspection. Right? optimist, we have a basic an entry level subscription fee of $250 per month. Now, this gives you access to up to 50 inspections. And if there’s a claim, your claim is is resolved at between five and 7%. So that means by using our services, you immediately save up to even more than 70% of the costs that you would have incurred by going to the traditional means. So in the recent past, we have had cases where some of our customers in Spain have used our solution to collect evidence of cargo. I think about two of those cases damaged. We had some cases in Italy where they used our solution for bananas that we exported from from Ghana to Italy and and now Then the customer could see in real time, you know how this banana out and so they save a significant amount of money for for survey fees. Also sort of workloads in in South Africa that import and bananas from from Ecuador, no plantings at all, they could use our tool to collect this evidence and to lodge the claim against the shipping lines. So, so far, we have seen some sort of take on the solution. But you know, what the industry is like, we are used to doing things in a particular way. So bringing new solutions to the market is always challenging. So, yes, it may still require a lot of work to change mindsets, but I think anyone who understands the industry or don’t want to want to start that process, and who sees what we do, they can, they can appreciate the additional value add that we bring to the entire process.

 

 Ibrahim – SEAFRIGO 35:55

 

That’s it, it’s it seems a very fascinating for me, and that’s the added value solution to the to the to the process. That is that is very long and costly for for all the parties and it’s cost efficient at the end, and also time efficient. So I’m pretty sure of your success and also development in the future because digitalization of is coming in every manner and the shippers and consignees will have to adapt, especially when they see the results. This is very important for them. Returning back to the to the claimants and and and the carriers. I would like to hear from you usually it’s about the culture and also the misunderstanding right there about the carrier’s liability and especially in terms of delays, because we face a lot of claims because of the lay of the vessels. But here you you the shippers and consignee find themselves they are unable to make a claim because of damage due to the to delay that do you think I need to hear your thoughts about it and how we should deal with something like that.

 

 

 

Kingsly – OPTIMIZ 37:17
Okay, so the first thing that I’m going to say which many people may find controversial is that delay if your cargo if you suffer damage to cargo as a result of delay, it does not automatically mean that you cannot change although shipping lines before we still knew that the the in the booking note or the bill of lading they said he was an ETA he was on the estimated time of arrival and as the the label that is largely correct, but it does not is not an automatic right for a shipping line. Now, let me let me go now and explain what I mean. So if First of all, you need to understand that the shipping line is well within his rights to deviate from his course, for specific purposes, say for example, to save life, or to see, to see the voyage, he may elect to deviate for this purpose is to go to his saved birth or save the shipping nice within his rights to do so. Now, there are also circumstances that were that are dis defined under the law as acts of God where the shipping line couldn’t, you know, amend or they couldn’t avoid the situation as a result. If there’s a delay, you cannot hold the shipping line responsible. In fact, if your cargo is coming from or going to a country that is signatory to hate groups or hate visby rooms, and where the carrier’s bill of lading stipulates that the jurisdiction or the choice of law and jurisdiction is in England or any other country which applies the Hebrew English rules, you’d be hard pressed to bring a successful claim on delay alone. However, however, there are ways which you can go to ensure that you can bring a claim if delay was you know, one of the factors of damage to your cargo. The first thing is, if you specifically communicate to a carrier that you want your goods to arrive at a particular market in a particular time, obviously, up higher freight, the issue specifically communicate that to the carrier and the carrier accepts that the carrier cannot come back and say, you know, I had to deviate for this and this reasons Because of that direct communications to carrier, the carrier will be responsible for any delay that arrives to your cargo. Alex, the next thing which you need to know is, you need to understand which laws apply in which countries where your, you know, either your vessel is coming from or the vessel is going to, because wherever there’s Hamburg Hamburg rules apply. delay is a specific head on the Hamburg rules which the shipping line will be responsible, you’ve damaged with occasion as a result of delay. So that is something which shippers need to understand the needs to be able to understand the various jurisdictions that the various laws which apply in the various countries where they are shipping to, because if a two year, let’s say a humbug was applied, then they will be able to file a claim for delay. Now, one of the common scenarios that we see is the situations where delay is only one of the many causes of damage, it could be that there is an increase in temperature. Now, what you need to understand here is the increase in temperature need not be significant. I tell I tell you what I mean by that, imagine that you in your house, you have a fridge right? in your fridge, you you take a banana, you put it in that fridge for two hours, and you take it out, it’s very unlikely that that banana will be cold. But if you were to leave the banana overnight, the next day will be very cold. What I mean by that is the the quality of a fruit is is a function of both time and temperature. I mean, there are other factors, but primarily time and temperature such that if the temperature we do vary only a little bit, and the time we extended significantly, then the impact of that extended time really highlights or you know, amplifies the impact of that that small increase in temperature. Right. So whenever you have a claim that you know that the the the main cause of damages is probably delay, check and see if there’s been any variation in temperature. And then you base your arguments around that temperature variation. For the if you approach a claim like that, there is ample case law that can support your arguments to bring a successful claim against a shipper a shipping line. So yes, I do agree with you, when it comes to delays, that the initial position of shipping lines is always to reject a claim, but want to do, there are avenues that you can take to increase your chances of success.